Are you in possession of a ill legal machine gun ?

[billg]

Are you in possession of the ill legal machine gun and don't know it? If you bought parts kit from Inter Ordinance you could have an illegal machine gun according to ATF. The following article is from a North Carolina newspaper.
MONROE, N.C. -- A pair of gun-trading brothers face federal charges of illegally importing Russian and Soviet-made machine guns and selling thousands of the weapons across the country.

Oliver and Ulrich Wiegand are charged in an 83-count indictment with crimes including conspiracy, illegal importation of machine guns, illegal possession and transfer of machine guns, and money laundering.


Oliver, 37, and Ulrich, 34, are brothers and German nationals, federal authorities said Thursday. They operate Inter Ordnance, a gun dealership based in Monroe; the charges involve Inter Ordnance and businesses in Witten, Germany, and Ferlach, Austria.


The Wiegands, both of Indian Trail, "reaped a substantial financial profit" from the sales and used the money to "support their extravagant personal lifestyles," according to a federal grand jury indictment issued Tuesday and unsealed Thursday.

Charges against each brother carry maximum penalties totaling 960 years in prison.

"The illegal importation, possession, and transfer of fully automatic machine guns pose a serious risk to law enforcement and other citizens," said U.S. Attorney Bob Conrad.

(If this true then there are going to be a lot gun owners in jail in very short order)

Ulrich Wiegand was held after an appearance Thursday before a federal magistrate in Charlotte. Oliver Wiegand was believed to be out of the country.

"My client and his company have tried their best to comply with vague ATF guidelines," Oliver Wiegand's lawyer, Chris Fialko, said. "He denies any wrongdoing."

Ulrich Wiegand's attorney could not be reached for comment.

The indictment alleges the brothers concealed the illegal sales of machine guns by referring to them as "parts kits" -- allowing them to evade tax payments, record-keeping requirements, and required background checks of potential customers.

Prosecutors said the brothers used their German and Austrian businesses to illegally import the guns, then sold more than 3,500 of them in parts kits by mail and Internet without background checks or recording ownership registration.


The indictment said the firearms were sold to customers in South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, Kansas, Missouri and Illinois.


But, Fialko said, "The trade groups representing importers of destroyed gun parts kits for gun collectors have been for years asking for clearer guidelines as to how these guns should be cut up properly."

"It appears the ATF has decided to legislate by indictment, instead of issuing proper regulations," he said. "This will be a contest of expert witnesses at trial."

Ulrich Wiegand is also accused of directing Inter Ordnance employees to structure cash deposits into various bank accounts in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements.

The brothers used Inter Ordnance bank accounts to transfer funds to various international accounts to conceal and disguise the company's profits, the indictment said.

Inter Ordnance's Web site tells customers it is a wholesale firearms distributor. The site offers items for sale including weapons and military gear such as a Belgian gas mask and reproductions of German World War II boots and helmets.[/b]

[scottc]

Ok, now I know there are many parts kits on the net that do not violate federal rules, so if you purchased one from this company thinking it complied and now you have not only a fully workable gun, but a machine gun what do you do. Will the ATF grant you a pass if you call them up and say sorry and turn it in with a no harm, no foul attitude? Or is your best bet to drop it off the side of a very tall mountain and make sure the receiver melts in the fires of hell and hope no one can reconstruct Inter Ordnance's files with your name on them. Now I am not in this position, but this brings up a possible concern for shooters and collectors in the future buying from an internet firearms site if they will be complying with the Feds.

Scott

[billg]

Unfortunately ATF has probably seized all records at InterOrdnance by this time and if the past is any indication of what's going to happen, ATF is going to send out letters to anyone who's received a receiver and instructing them to send it back to IO or ATF. I would not throw it off a cliff, or melt it or burn it and if you sold it I would make sure I had a receipt for it. Even though it's non functional, this is one of those laws I call a "thought crime" They "know" you were thinking about making a machine gun. Be careful the laws are extremely severe when dealing with any gun laws, especially machine guns. Bill G.

[marcw]

If someone isn't smart enough to know they are purchasing MG parts then shame on them. I don't know about some other guns but I know the difference between M-16 and AR-15 parts. If someone sent me "enough" M-16 parts to make a class III weapon I'm getting rid of those parts ASAP. Regardless of what the ATF believes they still have to prove you broke the law. If they can't find the parts then they can't prove it. Turning them into the ATF only proves you possessed those parts and I doubt they would thank you, pat you on your back, and send you on your way. If I was in possession of these parts and I decided to turn them in I would do it through a lawyer so the ATF couldn't bully me.

Besides, owning some of the parts is not illegal. ATFs own guidelines state there has to be "enough" parts to make a MG. Running a M-16 carrier in your AR is not illegal but if you have enough of the other parts in your range bag then you are up the creek without a paddle.

[billg]

I think IO had the problem with Russian PPSH43 machine guns that hadn't been demilled properly. They turned the parts into kits for sale. ATF feels that since they were not demilled to their standards that they were still machine guns. Be kind of interesting to see how far ATF is going to go with this.

AR-15, M16 Parts

ATF has interpreted this law many different ways over the past years since the law has been in effect, mainly who is politically in power at the time from just having a single bolt carrier to be considered fully auto to just a few parts. Be very careful when it comes to M-16 parts.

The ATF at the present time has interpreted the law such that parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm are subject to registration including:

Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machineguns.

Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machinegun.

Any combination of parts from which machineguns can be assembled if the parts are in the "constructive possession" or under the control of a person. Basically what ATF is saying is "We know what you are thinking. We know you're going to make a machine gun from these parts. We know best."

The quote below is from ATF's website. This is under general information. Hope this helps clear up confusion surrounding the "thought" laws that are out there.

"ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machine guns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.

Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than 1 shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machine gun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machine gun also includes any combination of parts from which a machine gun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger is a machine gun under the NFA. Any machine gun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machine gun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.

Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than 1 shot with a single pull of the trigger.

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only."
[/b]

[marcw]

I think the main sentenance there is:

In addition, the definition of a machine gun also includes any combination of parts from which a machine gun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person.

You guys would know the ATF better than me since you deal with them all the time.